Green Card Abandonment

[1a1]

Hi, wondering if someone can clarify some things for me. I have a non-expiring green card issued in 1987 when I was quite young, but my family moved back to Canada in 1988, so I understand that I have, effectively, abandoned my status as a LPR. My status was never officially abandoned as my parents weren't sure at the time if the move back was going to be permanent. Since then I have visited the States many times and I have never been asked about my green card or status. So I'm wondering what exactly is stopping me from looking for work once I'm in the country (also have a SSN)? To be clear I don't currently have plans to enter the country under a false premise (that's gotta be illegal I know), but since learning that I have my green card and SSN, I've been wondering about the feasibility of applying to jobs if/when I'm next in the states for a visit. Is there not legal grey area here or am I wrong??

[TarCas]

Have you been using your green card or canadian passport for those trips?

[1a1]

Have you been using your green card or canadian passport for those trips?

My Canadian passport...both by air and land...I guess because my card was issued so long ago, it doesn't come up when they scan my passport...and to date, I honestly didn't believe I had any status in the US, so I always presented myself as a visitor.

[fruityloops]

In the same boat

Hi, wondering if someone can clarify some things for me. I have a non-expiring green card issued in 1987 when I was quite young, but my family moved back to Canada in 1988, so I understand that I have, effectively, abandoned my status as a LPR. My status was never officially abandoned as my parents weren't sure at the time if the move back was going to be permanent. Since then I have visited the States many times and I have never been asked about my green card or status. So I'm wondering what exactly is stopping me from looking for work once I'm in the country (also have a SSN)? To be clear I don't currently have plans to enter the country under a false premise (that's gotta be illegal I know), but since learning that I have my green card and SSN, I've been wondering about the feasibility of applying to jobs if/when I'm next in the states for a visit. Is there not legal grey area here or am I wrong??

WOW! Are you me?
I have pretty much the same exact story. Got green card in 1986, no expiry, moved back to Canada in 1989 or so. I had no idea up until 3 years ago or so that I even had a green card. I was visiting my family here in the US and my dad found it when he was going through old stuff. But I had already visited the US many a times before I knew I had the green card. No one's ever asked me anything with regards to it or mentioned it in any shape way or form when coming to the US. I've even been finger printed twice I think and even then this was never brought up at the time or I might've done something about it there and then.

Anyway, so then I booked an in-person appointment with USICS (U-Pass it's called, I think) to get more info about what my status was. The agent that I talked to was able to pull up all my information and was wondering why I still hadn't applied for citizenship. I told him my whole story of how I haven't been in the US for such a long time and didn't even know I was a LPR. He said, 'well, then, why don't you apply for the new green card?'. I also asked him if I could work (I didn't have a SSN at the time btw), he said yes, absolutely. According to him, I was a LPR.

I returned to Canada and visited the US consulate in my city and told them of my predicament to see if I could get some waiver or some form of entry. The person who I dealt with basically looked at my green card and told me that I don't need anything else. He told me to return to the States and it should be fine.
So I crossed the border by land. I wasn't asked any questions at all, not even the normal ones. Was basically asked where I was going and the CBP officer let me through. He didn't ask me for my green card and I was too taken aback by the short interview to say anything and just drove through.

Once back, I went to the local SSA office and applied for my SSN, the agent who I dealt with flat out told me initially that he couldn't pull up anyone with the information on my green card, I told him that's simply not possible, he then wanted me to bring my Canadian birth certificate before he would do anything. So I drove back home, got my birth certificate and then somehow he was able to find me and 2 weeks later I had my SSN.
Then I applied for my driver's license and was able to get that no problem as well.
I was also able to find a job. No issues ever with any of the USCIS background checks (I've switched jobs a couple of times since then).

I've been in the US for the past 3 years now and have had children born here. I've paid all my taxes, have a car, long term lease on a house and looking to buy a house now. I've never had any problems with doing any of that.

But I'm still not really sure what my status is. I've talked to a couple of people and consulted with a lawyer and they've told me to apply for the new green card and wait a bit before I apply for citizenship (5 years).

I looked up my I-94 history and it shows that I left the US about 3 years ago. There is no information about my entry to the US again that I've mentioned earlier in the post. My passport wasn't stamped either.

Basically, i'm in the same exact boat as you except that, as far as I know, I'm residing in the US legally but I'm still not really sure what my status is (i.e. will it be considered as abandonment of status when I apply for citizenship?) and would I be able to re enter the US if I went to Canada for a visit right now, for example?

I'll appreciate any advice as well on what should my next steps be. I've never had any criminal intent and wouldn't want to do anything illegal but would just like some clarity and guidance.
Thanks!

P.S. I know it's a long post but perhaps it makes things clearer for you OP and helps us both in getting insightful replies.

[newacct]

WOW! Are you me?
I have pretty much the same exact story. Got green card in 1986, no expiry, moved back to Canada in 1989 or so. I had no idea up until 3 years ago or so that I even had a green card. I was visiting my family here in the US and my dad found it when he was going through old stuff. But I had already visited the US many a times before I knew I had the green card. No one's ever asked me anything with regards to it or mentioned it in any shape way or form when coming to the US. I've even been finger printed twice I think and even then this was never brought up at the time or I might've done something about it there and then.

Anyway, so then I booked an in-person appointment with USICS (U-Pass it's called, I think) to get more info about what my status was. The agent that I talked to was able to pull up all my information and was wondering why I still hadn't applied for citizenship. I told him my whole story of how I haven't been in the US for such a long time and didn't even know I was a LPR. He said, 'well, then, why don't you apply for the new green card?'. I also asked him if I could work (I didn't have a SSN at the time btw), he said yes, absolutely. According to him, I was a LPR.

I returned to Canada and visited the US consulate in my city and told them of my predicament to see if I could get some waiver or some form of entry. The person who I dealt with basically looked at my green card and told me that I don't need anything else. He told me to return to the States and it should be fine.
So I crossed the border by land. I wasn't asked any questions at all, not even the normal ones. Was basically asked where I was going and the CBP officer let me through. He didn't ask me for my green card and I was too taken aback by the short interview to say anything and just drove through.

Once back, I went to the local SSA office and applied for my SSN, the agent who I dealt with flat out told me initially that he couldn't pull up anyone with the information on my green card, I told him that's simply not possible, he then wanted me to bring my Canadian birth certificate before he would do anything. So I drove back home, got my birth certificate and then somehow he was able to find me and 2 weeks later I had my SSN.
Then I applied for my driver's license and was able to get that no problem as well.
I was also able to find a job. No issues ever with any of the USCIS background checks (I've switched jobs a couple of times since then).

I've been in the US for the past 3 years now and have had children born here. I've paid all my taxes, have a car, long term lease on a house and looking to buy a house now. I've never had any problems with doing any of that.

But I'm still not really sure what my status is. I've talked to a couple of people and consulted with a lawyer and they've told me to apply for the new green card and wait a bit before I apply for citizenship (5 years).

I looked up my I-94 history and it shows that I left the US about 3 years ago. There is no information about my entry to the US again that I've mentioned earlier in the post. My passport wasn't stamped either.

Basically, i'm in the same exact boat as you except that, as far as I know, I'm residing in the US legally but I'm still not really sure what my status is (i.e. will it be considered as abandonment of status when I apply for citizenship?) and would I be able to re enter the US if I went to Canada for a visit right now, for example?

I'll appreciate any advice as well on what should my next steps be. I've never had any criminal intent and wouldn't want to do anything illegal but would just like some clarity and guidance.
Thanks!

P.S. I know it's a long post but perhaps it makes things clearer for you OP and helps us both in getting insightful replies.

You shouldn't have anything to worry about. You are a permanent resident. Permanent resident status can only be completely lost by you voluntarily signing the I-407 form, or an immigration judge makes a final removal order against you. Otherwise, it is always still technically possible for an immigration officer to admit you on your green card in their discretion (or possible for an immigration judge to admit you when in removal proceedings). That's what happened to you. Although the officer usually only uses discretion to admit people who haven't been away for too long, and in your case should definitely have denied you entry, they didn't, for whatever reason (maybe they didn't know your history, or whatever); the reason doesn't matter. It is permissible for them to admit you and they did. So you have been lawfully admitted as a permanent resident.

[1a1]

WOW! Are you me?

LOL not last time I checked...thanks very much for sharing, that's a very encouraging story. I guess at the end of the day, the only way I will ever know for sure is by trying, and whether I ever do is still TBD. One of the biggest things holding me back is healthcare. I'm totally healthy but the state of the healthcare system in the US, as I understand it, is a little terrifying to me.

Anyways I figure there must be a lot more of us Canadian green card holders out there...so I've been wondering why I'm seemingly the only person on the internet asking these questions. So very glad to meet you eh!!!

[fruityloops]

You shouldn't have anything to worry about. You are a permanent resident. Permanent resident status can only be completely lost by you voluntarily signing the I-407 form, or an immigration judge makes a final removal order against you. Otherwise, it is always still technically possible for an immigration officer to admit you on your green card in their discretion (or possible for an immigration judge to admit you when in removal proceedings). That's what happened to you. Although the officer usually only uses discretion to admit people who haven't been away for too long, and in your case should definitely have denied you entry, they didn't, for whatever reason (maybe they didn't know your history, or whatever); the reason doesn't matter. It is permissible for them to admit you and they did. So you have been lawfully admitted as a permanent resident.

Thank you for the response. Is there some way of knowing what class or whatever it is that I was admitted under? I have no stamp on my passport and my I-94 doesn't show anything either. I do have other records of my past entry and exits, just not the last one. Or does it even matter? I only ask because I'd really like to apply for citizenship in the next couple of years and would like to do everything by the book.

Thanks again.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL not last time I checked...thanks very much for sharing, that's a very encouraging story. I guess at the end of the day, the only way I will ever know for sure is by trying, and whether I ever do is still TBD. One of the biggest things holding me back is healthcare. I'm totally healthy but the state of the healthcare system in the US, as I understand it, is a little terrifying to me.

Anyways I figure there must be a lot more of us Canadian green card holders out there...so I've been wondering why I'm seemingly the only person on the internet asking these questions. So very glad to meet you eh!!!

haha. I miss the way we say aboot and ehhhh!!! No one does that here, unless ofcourse they're making fun of you. Anywhooo, best of luck!

[Kstar4545]

WOW! Are you me?
I have pretty much the same exact story. Got green card in 1986, no expiry, moved back to Canada in 1989 or so. I had no idea up until 3 years ago or so that I even had a green card. I was visiting my family here in the US and my dad found it when he was going through old stuff. But I had already visited the US many a times before I knew I had the green card. No one's ever asked me anything with regards to it or mentioned it in any shape way or form when coming to the US. I've even been finger printed twice I think and even then this was never brought up at the time or I might've done something about it there and then.

Anyway, so then I booked an in-person appointment with USICS (U-Pass it's called, I think) to get more info about what my status was. The agent that I talked to was able to pull up all my information and was wondering why I still hadn't applied for citizenship. I told him my whole story of how I haven't been in the US for such a long time and didn't even know I was a LPR. He said, 'well, then, why don't you apply for the new green card?'. I also asked him if I could work (I didn't have a SSN at the time btw), he said yes, absolutely. According to him, I was a LPR.

I returned to Canada and visited the US consulate in my city and told them of my predicament to see if I could get some waiver or some form of entry. The person who I dealt with basically looked at my green card and told me that I don't need anything else. He told me to return to the States and it should be fine.
So I crossed the border by land. I wasn't asked any questions at all, not even the normal ones. Was basically asked where I was going and the CBP officer let me through. He didn't ask me for my green card and I was too taken aback by the short interview to say anything and just drove through.

Once back, I went to the local SSA office and applied for my SSN, the agent who I dealt with flat out told me initially that he couldn't pull up anyone with the information on my green card, I told him that's simply not possible, he then wanted me to bring my Canadian birth certificate before he would do anything. So I drove back home, got my birth certificate and then somehow he was able to find me and 2 weeks later I had my SSN.
Then I applied for my driver's license and was able to get that no problem as well.
I was also able to find a job. No issues ever with any of the USCIS background checks (I've switched jobs a couple of times since then).

I've been in the US for the past 3 years now and have had children born here. I've paid all my taxes, have a car, long term lease on a house and looking to buy a house now. I've never had any problems with doing any of that.

But I'm still not really sure what my status is. I've talked to a couple of people and consulted with a lawyer and they've told me to apply for the new green card and wait a bit before I apply for citizenship (5 years).

I looked up my I-94 history and it shows that I left the US about 3 years ago. There is no information about my entry to the US again that I've mentioned earlier in the post. My passport wasn't stamped either.

Basically, i'm in the same exact boat as you except that, as far as I know, I'm residing in the US legally but I'm still not really sure what my status is (i.e. will it be considered as abandonment of status when I apply for citizenship?) and would I be able to re enter the US if I went to Canada for a visit right now, for example?

I'll appreciate any advice as well on what should my next steps be. I've never had any criminal intent and wouldn't want to do anything illegal but would just like some clarity and guidance.
Thanks!

P.S. I know it's a long post but perhaps it makes things clearer for you OP and helps us both in getting insightful replies.

Wow don't doubt you but how the heck is that possible? When you leave US for over a year without reentry permit they consider it abandoned and put you in removal proceedings. People get grilled for short trips.

Pretty shocked I would just double check with a lawyer especially before filing for citizenship. They look deep into things when you file for citizenship and may deem you as having abandoned at that time so CHECK with a lawyer before filing.

[Kstar4545]

WOW! Are you me?
I have pretty much the same exact story. Got green card in 1986, no expiry, moved back to Canada in 1989 or so. I had no idea up until 3 years ago or so that I even had a green card. I was visiting my family here in the US and my dad found it when he was going through old stuff. But I had already visited the US many a times before I knew I had the green card. No one's ever asked me anything with regards to it or mentioned it in any shape way or form when coming to the US. I've even been finger printed twice I think and even then this was never brought up at the time or I might've done something about it there and then.

Anyway, so then I booked an in-person appointment with USICS (U-Pass it's called, I think) to get more info about what my status was. The agent that I talked to was able to pull up all my information and was wondering why I still hadn't applied for citizenship. I told him my whole story of how I haven't been in the US for such a long time and didn't even know I was a LPR. He said, 'well, then, why don't you apply for the new green card?'. I also asked him if I could work (I didn't have a SSN at the time btw), he said yes, absolutely. According to him, I was a LPR.

I returned to Canada and visited the US consulate in my city and told them of my predicament to see if I could get some waiver or some form of entry. The person who I dealt with basically looked at my green card and told me that I don't need anything else. He told me to return to the States and it should be fine.
So I crossed the border by land. I wasn't asked any questions at all, not even the normal ones. Was basically asked where I was going and the CBP officer let me through. He didn't ask me for my green card and I was too taken aback by the short interview to say anything and just drove through.

Once back, I went to the local SSA office and applied for my SSN, the agent who I dealt with flat out told me initially that he couldn't pull up anyone with the information on my green card, I told him that's simply not possible, he then wanted me to bring my Canadian birth certificate before he would do anything. So I drove back home, got my birth certificate and then somehow he was able to find me and 2 weeks later I had my SSN.
Then I applied for my driver's license and was able to get that no problem as well.
I was also able to find a job. No issues ever with any of the USCIS background checks (I've switched jobs a couple of times since then).

I've been in the US for the past 3 years now and have had children born here. I've paid all my taxes, have a car, long term lease on a house and looking to buy a house now. I've never had any problems with doing any of that.

But I'm still not really sure what my status is. I've talked to a couple of people and consulted with a lawyer and they've told me to apply for the new green card and wait a bit before I apply for citizenship (5 years).

I looked up my I-94 history and it shows that I left the US about 3 years ago. There is no information about my entry to the US again that I've mentioned earlier in the post. My passport wasn't stamped either.

Basically, i'm in the same exact boat as you except that, as far as I know, I'm residing in the US legally but I'm still not really sure what my status is (i.e. will it be considered as abandonment of status when I apply for citizenship?) and would I be able to re enter the US if I went to Canada for a visit right now, for example?

I'll appreciate any advice as well on what should my next steps be. I've never had any criminal intent and wouldn't want to do anything illegal but would just like some clarity and guidance.
Thanks!

P.S. I know it's a long post but perhaps it makes things clearer for you OP and helps us both in getting insightful replies.

Thank you for the response. Is there some way of knowing what class or whatever it is that I was admitted under? I have no stamp on my passport and my I-94 doesn't show anything either. I do have other records of my past entry and exits, just not the last one. Or does it even matter? I only ask because I'd really like to apply for citizenship in the next couple of years and would like to do everything by the book.

Thanks again.

- - - Updated - - -



haha. I miss the way we say aboot and ehhhh!!! No one does that here, unless ofcourse they're making fun of you. Anywhooo, best of luck!

Hey what kind of entry and exit records do you have? Did you obtain from Foip via cbp or are you using your own record or what? Like do you have your exit record via land from US into Canada?

[1a1]

Wow don't doubt you but how the heck is that possible?

Canadians can visit US for 6 months with no visa, in some cases with very little questions asked - if we needed to apply for a visa, this wouldn't work as our status would make us ineligible for visas. Also, my understanding is they don't retain records for land crossings between USA and Canada. Which leaves a pretty big loophole for Canadian GC holders; I'm sure fruityloops and I are not the only ones who have done or can do this.

In fact, there was another post on this site from a UK GC holder who entered, found love, and tried to get a spouse visa but was denied for already being a PR...her card also being from the 80s. So it seems to me this is "a thing".

Also, IRS, USCIS all have notes on their sites they don't really retain records for more than 5-6 years (can't remember exactly). So as long as you have clear, continuous residence for more than that, you're probably good to go. Even the N-400 only asks you to list your activities for previous 5 years.

[fruityloops]

Wow don't doubt you but how the heck is that possible? When you leave US for over a year without reentry permit they consider it abandoned and put you in removal proceedings. People get grilled for short trips.

Pretty shocked I would just double check with a lawyer especially before filing for citizenship. They look deep into things when you file for citizenship and may deem you as having abandoned at that time so CHECK with a lawyer before filing.

I've crossed the border many a times from Canada to US by land and never had my passport stamped or see those entry/exit records on the online I-94 service on CBP's website. In fact, I didn't even know I was a LPR and none of the CBP officers ever brought it up when crossing. I was also finger printed twice and even then this was never brought up.

The last record I have on the I-94 online service is showing my actual exit date the last time i left but has no entry date of when I entered 2 weeks later and my passport wasn't stamped either.
I plan on making a foia to CBP and USCIS before I apply for citizenship to get as much information as possible but from all that I've read and seen, unless you sign I-407 or an immigration judge rules that you have abandoned your residency, you are considered a LPR.

But you're right, what i've been reading is that when you apply for GC renewal or N400, they re-open your file and go through everything and then there is a possibility that the USCIS officer will consider it abandonment and refer you to deportation proceedings. I've read in some places that if you fulfill the 5 year residency then they don't mind as much and don't take any absences into account. I guess one will only know when one goes through it.

One lawyer I consulted mentioned that I should just stay put and not apply for citizenship for alteast 10 years or so. I'm currently in no hurry, I'd like to establish myself as much as possible here and then see where we go from there. I was going to apply for the newer GC but then read some cases where GCs were denied because of abandonment of status so I figured I'll just wait and apply for citizenship directly.

[Kstar4545]

Canadians can visit US for 6 months with no visa, in some cases with very little questions asked - if we needed to apply for a visa, this wouldn't work as our status would make us ineligible for visas. Also, my understanding is they don't retain records for land crossings between USA and Canada. Which leaves a pretty big loophole for Canadian GC holders; I'm sure fruityloops and I are not the only ones who have done or can do this.

In fact, there was another post on this site from a UK GC holder who entered, found love, and tried to get a spouse visa but was denied for already being a PR...her card also being from the 80s. So it seems to me this is "a thing".

Also, IRS, USCIS all have notes on their sites they don't really retain records for more than 5-6 years (can't remember exactly). So as long as you have clear, continuous residence for more than that, you're probably good to go. Even the N-400 only asks you to list your activities for previous 5 years.

Cool, yeah they're really only concerned with last five years.

I'm surprised you're Canadian and want to move, so many Canadians (I have family there from spouse side) sneer and look down on US but they keep moving there lol.

What about your card? Does anyone care that it's from the 80s? Musy look quite different than what officers are use to.

- - - Updated - - -

I've crossed the border many a times from Canada to US by land and never had my passport stamped or see those entry/exit records on the online I-94 service on CBP's website. In fact, I didn't even know I was a LPR and none of the CBP officers ever brought it up when crossing. I was also finger printed twice and even then this was never brought up.

The last record I have on the I-94 online service is showing my actual exit date the last time i left but has no entry date of when I entered 2 weeks later and my passport wasn't stamped either.
I plan on making a foia to CBP and USCIS before I apply for citizenship to get as much information as possible but from all that I've read and seen, unless you sign I-407 or an immigration judge rules that you have abandoned your residency, you are considered a LPR.

But you're right, what i've been reading is that when you apply for GC renewal or N400, they re-open your file and go through everything and then there is a possibility that the USCIS officer will consider it abandonment and refer you to deportation proceedings. I've read in some places that if you fulfill the 5 year residency then they don't mind as much and don't take any absences into account. I guess one will only know when one goes through it.

One lawyer I consulted mentioned that I should just stay put and not apply for citizenship for alteast 10 years or so. I'm currently in no hurry, I'd like to establish myself as much as possible here and then see where we go from there. I was going to apply for the newer GC but then read some cases where GCs were denied because of abandonment of status so I figured I'll just wait and apply for citizenship directly.

Wait but I thought Canadians and LPRs can't get I94s? So how would they have you there?

[1a1]

Cool, yeah they're really only concerned with last five years.

I'm surprised you're Canadian and want to move, so many Canadians (I have family there from spouse side) sneer and look down on US but they keep moving there lol.

What about your card? Does anyone care that it's from the 80s? Musy look quite different than what officers are use to.

Lol, I'm not even sure if I want to move. The political situation is not so good, and I'm VERY concerned about healthcare. I've always been healthy but paying to see a doctor seems downright medieval to me!! Still, living in Canada leaves you very little options if you want a change of scenery...every where you go you get snow!! So I'm contemplating moving to sunny AZ or CA.

Yeah my card is very old and I don't bear much resemblance to that little kid anymore lol. But it does have my teeny tiny fingerprint on it. If I do move, renewing will be high on my priority list because I'm sure I'd get asked a lot of questions about it.

[fruityloops]

Wait but I thought Canadians and LPRs can't get I94s? So how would they have you there?

Yes, we're not supposed to be finger printed either but I think this is always at the CBP officer's discretion. Out of the hundreds of crossings I've made, I was finger printed only twice. Same for the I94, I've made many crosssings back and forth and only a handful show up, not sure why. Might have to do with the CBP officer? I really can't say.

[Kstar4545]

Yes, we're not supposed to be finger printed either but I think this is always at the CBP officer's discretion. Out of the hundreds of crossings I've made, I was finger printed only twice. Same for the I94, I've made many crosssings back and forth and only a handful show up, not sure why. Might have to do with the CBP officer? I really can't say.

Sorry just to be clear on the 194 thing only your AIR ones (entries and exits) show up right? None of the lands ones do, and I am talking about both entries and exits here? Do ANY of your land exits show up on that report?